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Hi Scott
Just because Andorra, didn't join the European Union, doesn't mean
you can denigrate them like that. They are connected to both spain
and france, right there on the border. Last we heard you were Paris,
France. Vactioning?
Have a nice weekend.
Thanks again, Paul V.
--- In shavian@..., Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Sep 23, 2004, at 13:40, Philip Newton wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:38:06 -0000, paul vandenbrink
> > <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Behold, Philip Newton and Scott Harrison.
> >> I think they are both off in Europe somewhere.
> >
> > I'm certainly in Europe, yes (Hamburg, Germany).
> >
> If you consider Andorra to be in Europe than I qualify as
well. :-)
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86



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Hi Joe
In response to your comments and questions, here is what I think.

I do want to incorporate quizzes and prizes in our discusions in
order to get some interest going.
Since the Shaw Alphabet was orginally designed, by making up a
contest and Co-opting people and their ideas, it would be
appropriate to continue the tradition of making Shaw a challenge.
>
You are correct that we need to come up with good quizes for
beginning students. Ideally, they would be good prizes, but not
require a lot of money. For example, we might name a Shaw letter
after you
or some such honor.
As for contributons for the prizes, I certain I can get some
Donations. Obviously we don't have to pay out any money until we get
a winner, so we can certainly proceed with making up the questons.
If we have multiple winners in the same test,
We would have run-off test just between the winners and only the
finalist would get the prize.


It is hard to convey the utility of Shavian to people, but I use a
couple of examples that get the point across.
Compare the benefits of switching from Roman Numerals without a zero
to Arabic Numbers. (10 Digits) A friend of mine persist in sending
in his income tax form made up in Roman Numerals and refused to
correct it. He was audited for 6 years in a row before they let up
on him.
Compare the benefits of switching from Decimal numbers to Binary
Numbers for computer programming. (10 Digits)
Compare the benefits of switching from British Units (inches, Feet,
miles pints gallons) to a Metric Units (kilos, Liters, Meters)
Ask any scientist what he uses.
Now is an Alphabet any less lkely to benefit from being consistent,
than those other systems?

, and it's their own procrastination that keeps them from
> learning it. Or maybe other obligations

> > Regards, Paul V.

P.S. It's funny (pecular) that you asked about the point of
Ghostworld and
then made a comment about people not having enough time to learn
Shaw, because of the Real Stuff that is more important(i.e. family
obligations, homework, Jobs, Real Day to Day Life)
Because the story Ghostworld is all about 2 girls growing up, close
friends who face the same dilemma as you referred to.
One girl opts for conformity. The other (female version of David
Letterman) refuses to be political correct, refuses to moderate her
sarcastic derision of modern hypocracy and eventually goes off to
her own world. Symbolically, she re-creates her own world.
It's quite funny (humorous).


--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
> > Maybe we can incorporate quizzes and prizes to get some interest
> > going?
> > I can make up some sample questions, if anyone wants to see what
I mean.
>
> We need to come up with good quizes for beginning students.
What
> kind of prizes are you talking about, and who's paying for them?
>

> I haven't been able to convey the utility of Shavian to but a
couple
> people, and it's their own procrastination that keeps them from
> learning it. Or maybe other obligations . . . but who needs
> homework? Jobs? Life? Nah.



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On Sep 24, 2004, at 18:51, paul vandenbrink wrote:

> Hi Scott
> Just because Andorra, didn't join the European Union, doesn't mean
> you can denigrate them like that. They are connected to both spain
> and france, right there on the border. Last we heard you were Paris,
> France. Vactioning?
>
I have moved to Andorra. I prefer the winters here to those of Paris
where you get grey skies from November to March. Here is bright sun,
but a little colder. And the language challenge is even greater here
since Catalan is the national language and you have lots of Spanish
too.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

On Sep 24, 2004, at 19:37, paul vandenbrink wrote:

> P.S. It's funny (pecular) that you asked about the point of
> Ghostworld and
> then made a comment about people not having enough time to learn
> Shaw, because of the Real Stuff that is more important(i.e. family
> obligations, homework, Jobs, Real Day to Day Life)
> Because the story Ghostworld is all about 2 girls growing up, close
> friends who face the same dilemma as you referred to.
> One girl opts for conformity. The other (female version of David
> Letterman) refuses to be political correct, refuses to moderate her
> sarcastic derision of modern hypocracy and eventually goes off to
> her own world. Symbolically, she re-creates her own world.
> It's quite funny (humorous).
>
Interesting interpretation. I saw Ghost World by accident almost.
During one of Paris' week of 1 euro movies I went to a bunch of films
back-to-back and it so happened that Ghost World fit into one of my
timeslots. I had never heard of it, but decided to watch. I did not
really enjoy the movie because of the character Enid. However, if you
are saying that her non-conformity is how the movie relates to Shavian,
I would be a little scared because I would not normally like to
consider myself to be as dysfunctional as Enid.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

Hi Scott
Andorra sounds like a nice place, a minature Switzerland.
I heard about Catalan from the forum at www.antimoon.com.
A old Romance Language closer to french than Spanish, that the
people in Barcelona like to speak and with a decent spelling system
too.

Anyway as for Enid of Ghostworld. I liked her right off the bat.
I thought she was funny, although I could see how her friend saw her
as hopeless. I didn't know what to make of the ending at first, but
upon reflection I realized it symbolized her rejection of the value
system of her world and her willingness to goes off to uncertain
future and another
place, to avoid being compelled to be a Loser. She re-invents her
world and puts in a little magic in to it, in terms of the Bus.
Personally, I do consider Enid's non-conformity to be disfunctional
in the Job Market, as she just couldn't imagine herself
subordinating her opinions to keep a job. And she acted on her
belief.
Discretion may be the better part of valour, but not in Enid's world.
Normally, you would call such a person an idealist, but it wasn't
ideas, but the lack of pretense that seemed to be her main stock in
trade.
But I wouldn't call her Disfunctional or even eccentric in the other
aspects of her life.
Unsuccessful is a better term than Dysfunctional.

Anyway back to Shavian.
An interest in providing people with a useful Mental tool, such as
the Shavian alphabet can not be considered to be a sign of being
Dysfunctional
or eccentric.
To give this knowledge about Shavian, free of charge is both
philantrophic, beneficial and interesting.

A simplified alphabet, that allows people illiterate in standard
written English to read and write English with much less effort has
many practical benefits.

There is also a long term benefit that without some standardization
or rationalization of English Spelling, English writing will have
less and less correspondence with the spoken language. And the
situation, if not ameliorated with a new alphabet or some other
technology, would result in English eventually splintering off like
Latin into plethora of un-romantic Languages. Every city can have
its own variety of English, as in the major centers of England.

Plethora as in a condition characterized by an excess of blood and
marked by turgescence and a florid complexion. Over-abundance of
varieties. A Cancerous uncontrolled growth of undifferentiated
tissue.

At this point in time, English is a still very useful language to
know.
A good part of the World's current knowledge is deseminated through
standard English. The ability to read and otherwise communicate in
english is necessary in many parts of the world.

Regards, Paul V.


--- In shavian@..., Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
Interesting interpretation. I saw Ghost World by accident almost.
> During one of Paris' week of 1 euro movies I went to a bunch of
films
> back-to-back and it so happened that Ghost World fit into one of
my
> timeslots. I had never heard of it, but decided to watch. I did
not
> really enjoy the movie because of the character Enid. However, if
you
> are saying that her non-conformity is how the movie relates to
Shavian,
> I would be a little scared because I would not normally like to
> consider myself to be as dysfunctional as Enid.
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86



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Hi Scott

Mark Twain believed that the people who espoused a new Alphabet
would be considered less disfunctional than those espoused piecemeal
spelling reform.

In an article, written during the autumn of 1899, Samuel Clemens
commented on Simplified Spelling.
Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) wrote that he was dissatisfied with the
efforts of the simplified spellers. He believed that those who used
simplified spelling based on the Roman Alphabet, publicly were in
danger of being viewed as illiterate, uneducated, or nuts.

Yet as Mark Twain observed:
"A written character with which we are not familiar does not
offend."

In this sense, he seems to argue that a new Alphabet, would be
considered with less prejudice, and would be a more practical
solution to the English Spelling problem.
I am also including another quote from Mark Twain where he has some
fun with the whole idea. It's quite humourous, if a little off topic.

"Mind, I myself am a Simplified Speller; I belong to that unhappy
guild that is patiently and hopefully trying to reform our drunken
old alphabet by reducing his whiskey.
Well, it will improve him.
When they get through and have reformed him all they can by their
system he will be only HALF drunk. Above that condition their system
can never lift him. There is no competent, and lasting, and real
reform for him but to take away his whiskey entirely, and fill up
his jug with Pitman's wholesome and undiseased alphabet.

One great drawback to Simplified Spelling is, that in print a
simplified word looks so like our very nation! and when you bunch up
a whole squadron of the Simplified together the spectacle is very
nearly unendurable."

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Scott
> Anyway back to Shavian.
> An interest in providing people with a useful Mental tool, such as
> the Shavian alphabet can not be considered to be a sign of being
> Dysfunctional
> or eccentric.
> To give this knowledge about Shavian, free of charge is both
> philantrophic, beneficial and interesting.
>
> A simplified alphabet, that allows people illiterate in standard
> written English to read and write English with much less effort
has many practical benefits.
>
> There is also a long term benefit that without some
standardization
> or rationalization of English Spelling



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--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> I do want to incorporate quizzes and prizes in our discusions in
> order to get some interest going.
> Since the Shaw Alphabet was orginally designed, by making up a
> contest and Co-opting people and their ideas, it would be
> appropriate to continue the tradition of making Shaw a challenge.

It does seem appropriate.

> You are correct that we need to come up with good quizes for
> beginning students. Ideally, they would be good prizes, but not
> require a lot of money. For example, we might name a Shaw letter
> after you
> or some such honor.

That may not be a good idea. Some names may just not work, and
it's probably not a good idea to start changing names now. We
should use the names given in the Shaw Newsletter. We have those on
the authoridy of Read himself, after some refinement since Androcles.

> As for contributons for the prizes, I certain I can get some
> Donations. Obviously we don't have to pay out any money until we
get
> a winner, so we can certainly proceed with making up the questons.
> If we have multiple winners in the same test,
> We would have run-off test just between the winners and only the
> finalist would get the prize.

What kinds of questions do you think we should ask? After that,
tie-breakers follow and are pretty simple.

> It is hard to convey the utility of Shavian to people, but I use a
> couple of examples that get the point across.
> Compare the benefits of switching from Roman Numerals without a
zero
> to Arabic Numbers. (10 Digits) A friend of mine persist in sending
> in his income tax form made up in Roman Numerals and refused to
> correct it. He was audited for 6 years in a row before they let up
> on him.

That's a little strange, but I've heard of others doing that.

> Compare the benefits of switching from Decimal numbers to Binary
> Numbers for computer programming. (10 Digits)

There wasn't really a switch, per se. It was pretty apparent
from the beginning that base-10 numbers were too complex for the
primitive computers that started it. We may even be moving up to
base-20 soon. What's better here all depends on what the computers
can handle. So, while the first "switch" might have been good,
we're still holding onto it even though we could improve. Not
surprizing, is it?

> Compare the benefits of switching from British Units (inches,
Feet,
> miles pints gallons) to a Metric Units (kilos, Liters, Meters)
> Ask any scientist what he uses.

That's for sure. Of course, I live in the only developed nation
in the world that still refuses to adopt the metric standard. How
fun it is for me to convert units.

> Now is an Alphabet any less lkely to benefit from being
consistent,
> than those other systems?

Here, here!

> P.S. It's funny (pecular) that you asked about the point of
> Ghostworld and
> then made a comment about people not having enough time to learn
> Shaw, because of the Real Stuff that is more important(i.e. family
> obligations, homework, Jobs, Real Day to Day Life)
> Because the story Ghostworld is all about 2 girls growing up,
close
> friends who face the same dilemma as you referred to.
> One girl opts for conformity. The other (female version of David
> Letterman) refuses to be political correct, refuses to moderate
her
> sarcastic derision of modern hypocracy and eventually goes off to
> her own world. Symbolically, she re-creates her own world.
> It's quite funny (humorous).

I'll go with non-conformity. The only way to get people using
Shavian is to use it. Telling people about it on an individual
basis doesn't seem to work. The best way is probably just to post
it anywhere you would post Roman. If you write something that many
people may read, why not use both? That may be the only way most of
them will see it. I haven't really done much of that, but I do use
it myself in notes and when I write my fiction. People are always
intrigued by pages of letters that they don't recognize.



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>
> > Compare the benefits of switching from Decimal numbers to Binary
> > Numbers for computer programming. (10 Digits)
>
> There wasn't really a switch, per se. It was pretty apparent
> from the beginning that base-10 numbers were too complex for the
> primitive computers that started it. We may even be moving up to
> base-20 soon. What's better here all depends on what the computers
> can handle. So, while the first "switch" might have been good,
> we're still holding onto it even though we could improve. Not
> surprizing, is it?

Base 20, great, then we'd be on par with the myans and toltecs. Don't
you love advancement?

--Star

=====
http://www.photobucket.com/albums/v382/StarRaven

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



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> > Compare the benefits of switching from British Units (inches,
> Feet,
> > miles pints gallons) to a Metric Units (kilos, Liters, Meters)
> > Ask any scientist what he uses.
>
> That's for sure. Of course, I live in the only developed nation
> in the world that still refuses to adopt the metric standard. How
> fun it is for me to convert units.

At least with every country in the world, including the USA, you pretty much
avoid insanity by having either have one standard or the other in daily use
in your country (i.e. metric OR imperial)... every country apart from the
UK.

Here in blighty we have the frankly bizarre situation of BOTH (mutually
incompatible) systems trying to co-exist alongside each other, with obvious
resulting confusion:

* Milk is delivered to the doorstep only in pint bottles, but when you buy
it in a shop it's only available in millilitres
* In pubs you buy draught (from tap) beer by the pint, but you can only buy
bottled beer, spirit shots and other bar drinks by millilitres
* You regularly see 'for sale' signs on development land quoting the
available area in EITHER acres OR hectares... you also see carpet warehouses
advertising either by square feet or by square metres (or both, but with one
measurement in a massive typeface and the other in tiny i.e. unreadable
print underneath)
* In local supermarkets it's not uncommon to find 99% of the products on the
shelves weighed in grams, but then find the vegetables and other 'sell by
weight' items weighed in pounds and ounces
* Weather forecasters have to describe temperatures in both Celsius AND
Fahrenheit, but often forget Fahrenheit in their haste... also
* On the roads, weight restrictions are only in metric tonnes, but distances
are in miles and yards and height restrictions are in both metres AND feet
and inches (and they wonder why double-decker buses still get stuck under
low bridges)
* We describe our cars' weight in tonnes/kilograms and the engine
displacement in litres, yet measure the wheel diameter in inches and the
tire pressure in pounds per square inch (psi)... Engine torque is described
in either foot pounds or Newton metres... What's more, we price petrol by
the litre yet measure fuel economy in miles per gallon!

Maybe this is hardly on topic... I just thought that many Americans who
think their use of imperial units is crazy just have no idea how crazy it is
here trying to juggle two completely incompatible systems that very few
people on the street really know how to convert between at all, let alone
convert between on the spot at the supermarket shelves.

...gasps for air...

Hugh B

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Hugh Birkenhead skribis:
>
> Here in blighty we have the frankly bizarre situation of
> BOTH (mutually incompatible) systems trying to co-exist
> alongside each other, with obvious resulting confusion:
>
> * In local supermarkets it's not uncommon to find 99%
> of the products on the shelves weighed in grams, but
> then find the vegetables and other 'sell by weight' items
> weighed in pounds and ounces


Weren't there some news reports last year about
shopkeepers in the UK being fined for selling vegetables
by the pound instead of kilogram?

--Ph. D.




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