YahooGroup Archive

From: stbetta@...
Date: 2005-04-20 23:36:02 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Gone Fishing

Hi Gang,

This is keyboard shavian. Can you read it?

I have suggested another key but there is no interest among Shavians in
changing.

Once you have learned a new spelling system, few want to change for the
benefit
of new learners.

Here is the same message in ENgliS, another mixed cap notation.
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ENgliS.htm

gQn fiSiN

hF evrI budI
I Am in H midal v trAvliN rFt nQ, sO mF updEts wil bI
sumwut spPAdik.
F hOp HAt sumwun wil respynd n get His fPam gOing.
F hEt t sI it in H midal v H /dOldrumz.
mEbI F kAn get sumwunz wind up,
n stRt evrI TiN gOin agEn.
/gon fiSN

/hY evrE bQdE
/I Am in D midal v trAvliN rYt noW, sO mY updAts wil bE
sumwut spRAdik.
/I hOp Dat sumwun wil respQnd n get Dis foram gOiN.
/I hAt t sE it in D midL v D /dOldramz.
/mEbE I kAn get sumwunz wind up,
n stqrt evrE TiN gOiN agen.

From: Joe <wurdbendur@...>
Date: 2005-04-23 17:21:40 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Gone Fishing

Toggle Shavian

I can manage with keyboard Shavian, but I¹m certain it could be improved.
But I think it¹s important to arrange the keys in a way that doesn¹t obscure
associations between letters as much as the current one. A mapping based on
ENgliS would be more readable without the font, but would lose these
connections. For example, related letters could be paired like this: a-u,
e-E, A-F, i-I, etc., with the second on the shifted key. That¹s just one
possibility, anyway. I¹m not sure the tall-deep pairs are necessary, but
those could also be helpful. Putting e-I on one key, as in ENgliS, makes no
sense without reference to TO (or the historical origins of these sounds,
but most people don¹t know or care about that).

Regards,
Joe Spicer
/JO spFsD

P.S. I¹m currently in the process of switching to Dvorak, so I know how
hard it can be, but I¹m interested in making Shavian easier to learn and
more accessible to beginners. The ideas mentioned above would be good, but
anything that accomplishes this goal is worth considering.

On 4/20/05 6:35 PM, "stbetta@..." <stbetta@...> wrote:

> Hi Gang,
>
> This is keyboard shavian. Can you read it?
>
> I have suggested another key but there is no interest among Shavians in
> changing.
>
> Once you have learned a new spelling system, few want to change for the
> benefit
> of new learners.
>
> Here is the same message in ENgliS, another mixed cap notation.
> www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ENgliS.htm
> <http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/ENgliS.htm>
>
>
>> gQn fiSiN
>>
>> hF evrI budI
>> I Am in H midal v trAvliN rFt nQ, sO mF updEts wil bI
>> sumwut spPAdik.
>> F hOp HAt sumwun wil respynd n get His fPam gOing.
>> F hEt t sI it in H midal v H /dOldrumz.
>> mEbI F kAn get sumwunz wind up,
>> n stRt evrI TiN gOin agEn.
> /gon fiSN
>
> /hY evrE bQdE
> /I Am in D midal v trAvliN rYt noW, sO mY updAts wil bE
> sumwut spRAdik.
> /I hOp Dat sumwun wil respQnd n get Dis foram gOiN.
> /I hAt t sE it in D midL v D /dOldramz.
> /mEbE I kAn get sumwunz wind up,
> n stqrt evrE TiN gOiN agen.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> * shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>

From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>
Date: 2005-04-27 05:01:52 #
Subject: another futile attempt?

Toggle Shavian

ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½, ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½, ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½. ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½, ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½.

ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½
ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½

From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>
Date: 2005-04-27 05:30:18 #
Subject: temporary failure

Toggle Shavian

Well, that didn't work.

The previous message was an attempt to send a
message in Unicode. Apparently, as others have
pointed out, Yahoo does not support this means
of communication, so until they do we shall be
obliged to follow the traditional if tiresome method
of copy, paste, and conversion to read anything in
Shawscript (unless someone has a better plan).

Unfortunately, and I suspect this applies to others
as well, I have become reasonably adept in reading
Shavian keyboard, so that if a message is brief, by
the time I copy and paste it I have already deciphered
it. Of course, this undermines the whole point of
a Shavian alphabet, but the temptation is difficult to
resist.

However, in spite of the lack of success, I still wish
to thank Chartograph for pointing me in the right
direction so that I could at least install a Unicode
potential, and to Scott Harrison for creating such
potential. I know that he did this some time ago but
I did not have at the time the software that could use
it. Also thanks to Joe who also provided useful information.

Eventually, I should think, things shall improve.

hopefully,
dshep

From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>
Date: 2005-04-27 05:59:45 #
Subject: Re: It is a weird world

Toggle Shavian

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
"paul vandenbrink" wrote:
>

dao/Tao (The way) is a whirling emptiness,
yet when used cannot be exhausted.
Out of this mysterious well
flows everything in existence.

> I think this is a good example of Religous
> Hyperbole.

Hyperbole? well, perhaps. But imaginative
hyperbole can be preferable to inflexible
dogma, or so it seems to me. If I am not
mistaken I believe the Chinese regard
Daoism as a necessary counterpart (or
counterweight) and corrective to the
rigidities of Confucianism. Something
like that anyway.

Keep in mind that,

*****************

Az F prazent from tFm tM tFm salektad bits
from Ha /dQ F dM sO Onli tM entDtEn, nevD
tM prosalitFz; indId, F kUd not Ivan if F
wontad tM -- mF noliJ ov /dQ, Yr fYr Hat
mAtD eni raliJan iz sMpDfiSal At best.

if V rakYl, F YlwEz inklMd a nOt tM HAt afekt.
basFdz, Fm not At Yl SUr HAt /dQ iz a raliJan,
mOr lFk a falosafi, Yr pOatri. ramenbD, V kAn
anJQ Ha pOamz ov /syfO wiHQt eni dazFr tM
bakum a lezbian.

dSep

From: Ethan <ethanl@...>
Date: 2005-04-27 06:03:41 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] temporary failure

Toggle Shavian

dshepx wrote:
>
> Well, that didn't work.
>
> The previous message was an attempt to send a
> message in Unicode. Apparently, as others have
> pointed out, Yahoo does not support this means
> of communication, so until they do we shall be
> obliged to follow the traditional if tiresome method
> of copy, paste, and conversion to read anything in
> Shawscript (unless someone has a better plan).

It's not Yahoo's fault. I have been using Unicode successfully here for
some time. Look at my signature line at the end of this message.

My problem is I can't type in Shavian (with Unicode) yet.

Here's the problem, taken from the headers of your last message:

User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster

So you must be using the web interface to post to the group. In that
case, you can't change the character set and encoding configuration.

Here's the relevant line from one of my messages for comparison:

User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040314

That illustrates the difference in message origins. Now, here's what
makes the real difference:

Subject: [shawalphabet] another futile attempt?
Reply-To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

And from my message:

Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Re: Another test
Reply-To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The really important parts are the charset and encoding. My message is
using the UTF-8 charset (Unicode) and 8 bit encoding, which means it's
not encoded any special way. Your message is using ISO-8859-1 charset
(Latin-1) and base64 encoding, which means that your message was
actually sent like this:

77+977+977+98CewJ++/ve+/vfAnsCfvv73vv73vv70g77+977+977+98CewJ++/ve+/vfAn
sCfvv73vv70g77+977+977+98CewJ++/ve+/vfAnsCfvv73vv73vv70gCu+/ve+/ve+/vfAn
sCfvv73vv73vv73wJ7An77+977+98CewJ++/ve+/ve+/vfAnsCfvv73vv73wJ7An77+977+9
77+9IO+/ve+/ve+/vfAnsCfvv73vv73wJ7An77+977+977+9Cu+/ve+/ve+/vfAnsCfvv73v
v73vv73wJ7An77+977+9IO+/ve+/ve+/vfAnsCfvv73vv73wJ7An77+977+98CewJ++/ve+/

Then, it was incorrectly decoded (Latin-1) to this:

ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ð'°'ï¿½ï¿½

Now I don't know how it was originally encoded, but in UTF-8 it looks
like this:

��'�'��'�'�� '�'��'�'�� '�'��'�'��
��'�'��'�'��'�'��'�'��'�'�� '�'��'�'��
��'�'��'�'�� '�'��'�'��'�'��'�'��'�'��'�'��, ��'�'��
��'�'��'�'��'�'�� '�'��'�'��'�'��

Which is nothing but a series of undisplayable characters, mostly the
same character repeated over and over.

You might try using a Unicode-aware email program on your computer, if
you have access to one, and send your message to the group email
address, shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com. Then set your group email up to
receive the message via email.
--
·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 - Ethan

From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>
Date: 2005-04-27 06:07:19 #
Subject: Re: Gone Fishing

Toggle Shavian

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- stbetta@a... wrote:

> Hi Gang,
>
> This is keyboard shavian. Can you read it?

> I have suggested another key but there is no
> interest among Shavians in changing.

> Once you have learned a new spelling system,
> few want to change for the benefit of new
> learners.

Nothing appeared for me before "Hi Gang"
Was there anything?

dshep

From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>
Date: 2005-04-27 06:17:53 #
Subject: confusion

Toggle Shavian

Evan,

I thought I had encoded my failed message in Unicode-8.
Incorrectly apparently.

Here it is once again:

ð`¨ð`Ÿ ð`·ð`¤ ð`¦ð`Ÿ ð`'ð`¢ð`"ð`©ð`` ð`¨ð`` ð`žð`© ð`¥ð`´ð`¥ð`©ð`¯ð``, ð`² ð`'ð`¨ð`¯ ð`¯ð`ªð`` ð`®ð`©ð`Ÿð`¦ð`•ð`` ð`©ð`¯ð`³ð`žð`¼
ð``ð`§ð`•ð``, ð`žð`¦ð`• ð``ð`²ð`¥ ð`¦ð`¯ ð`¿ð`¯ð`¦ð`'ð`´ð`›. ð`² ð`›ð`¬ð`` ð`žð`¨ð`` ð`¦ð`` ð`–ð`¨ð`¤ ð`¢ð`³ð`®ð`', ð`šð`³ð`` ð`¦ð``
ð`'ð`«ð`› ð`šð`° ð`¢ð`³ð`®ð`" ð`© ð``ð`®ð`¦.

ð`¿ð`¯ð`¦ð`'ð`ªð`› ð`¯ð`ªð`ð`¦ð`•

From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>
Date: 2005-04-27 06:20:44 #
Subject: Re: confusion

Toggle Shavian

From: david sheppard <dshep@...>
Date: 2005-04-27 06:33:31 #
Subject: en gång till

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